Episode 6

Race, Faith, and Personal Responsibility

Transcript

Kevin Stevens: Welcome to the Q Talks podcast as we launch a miniseries exploring critical issues of race and systemic injustice in business, I am Kevin Stevens, dean of the Quinlan School of Business. Like you, I am sickened by the killing of George Floyd and the long history of systemic racism and violence of us directed towards the black community. I have spent much time listening and reflecting on what the Quinlan School of Business and I can do to move the world toward greater social justice. This podcast miniseries is just part of a list of concrete, measurable steps Quinlan has taken. This miniseries centers on the perspectives of black members of our community to explore critical issues. Please join us in these conversations and other Loyola and Quinlan initiatives as we seek to help end systemic racism.

Andy Kaufman: I am Andy Kaufman, an adjunct instructor at the Quinlan School of Business and host of the People and Projects podcast. I'm joined today in this episode of the Q Talks podcast by my dean and friend Pam McCoy. Hey there, Pam.

Pam McCoy: Hi, Andy, and thank you for joining me on this episode to offer another perspective to address a very complex, deeply rooted and highly sensitive topic.

Andy Kaufman: So when Loyola approach you to be part of this series of discussions, like what were your what were your initial thoughts there, Pam?

Pam McCoy: I think the first thought, Andy, in all honesty, was, oh, my gosh, what will I say, right? And will whatever I say, how will it be received?

Andy Kaufman: Yeah.

Pam McCoy: Although I'm known at Loyola as the Associate Dean of graduate programs for the Quinlan School of Business and a black woman. My identity, who I am, is a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ. And I know that that's true about you as well. So my suggestion was the discussion of racism from a spiritual perspective between two friends who are different in color but same in blood.

Andy Kaufman: Hmm. Yeah. You know, it's funny, Pam, when you mention the idea to me about this sort of idea, it really resonated, not the least of which, because one of the many things that I love about being part of the Loyola family is this foundational belief that, you know, we are here to care for the whole person, the Pura Personalis. And, you know, in a culture that sometimes feels uncomfortable, quite frankly, talking about the spiritual aspect of our lives, I love that Loyola provides space for that. We can care for the whole person. And without that, we can so easily miss this important part of who we are and how that informs how we deal with these critically important issues like racism.

Pam McCoy: Let me also add that the Jesuit values that Loyola sustains call for each of us to be men and women, for others, for the glory of God. Ad majorem dei gloriam must care for the whole self as career personnel suggests. But we also have to care for each other simultaneously.

Andy Kaufman: So, you know, you mentioned that your first and foremost a follower of Jesus, right? So how would you describe your faith journey, Pam?

Pam McCoy: Well, I'm glad you ask because every part of our life, everything we go through, informs the next step in our life. I came to faith in Christ as a marriage was ending. Actually, I had hoped would last. I was conflicted, wounded and broken. And I desperately wish that I could undo all of my mistakes and have another chance. And that's when I learned that God is a God of second chances and also able to give us a solid identity that's grounded in him and through him. How about you and what was your journey?

Andy Kaufman: I grew up in a family that would go to church, but would honestly, it was mostly just going through the motions. I mean, nothing against my parents or whatever, but it was just more cultural that I wouldn't say it was anything personal. And when I left the small town in central Illinois and went to college, all of a sudden there's a lot of things that changed in my life. And I just got to the point where I started asking more questions. I came home at the end of my sophomore year and ran into a friend and he said, he goes, Hey, Indy, I'm a Christian. I'm like, Well, what does that mean? What do you mean by that? You know? Honestly, like, did you join a church? You know, what does that actually mean? And he was very patient. And we spent we spent that summer together. And I got to the point, Pam, where I'm just like, you know what? I can't do this on my own. I just can't do this on my own and I need a savior. And so that was the point that between my sophomore and junior years and I'll say it changed things radically for me there, my whole college experience and even to this day, it informs how I even look at my students in the classroom. You know, they are made in the image of God. They have intrinsic value, they deserve our best. And it certainly informs how we look at the world now and try to understand it. So this is a series on race, and though we share the same faith, our experiences regarding race, they've been different, right?

Pam McCoy: Absolutely. Before the killing of George Floyd and the resulting protests, had you ever thought what it might be like to be black in America?

Andy Kaufman: Wow. You know, that's actually a really interesting question because I mean, like I mentioned, I grew up in central Illinois, small town. Like diversity was probably like, are you a Cardinals fan or a Cubs fan? I mean, that was kind of like the extent of the diversity. But, you know, the truth is one of my best friends was not white. And it did give me a little bit of a glimpse of what it was like for him to go through just an overwhelmingly white culture. I played basketball in college, so the sports provided opportunities to develop many more friendships with people who didn't look like me. And we've got five kids, two of which were adopted through the foster system in Illinois and the youngest two, which they're nine and ten now. I mean, they will tell you we're not peach like you, Daddy, that, you know, that's their terminology. So it's been interesting and I'll say to some degree heartbreaking to watch them process things since the George Floyd killing. It's led to a lot of discussions. So have I thought about what it's like to be black in America? Pam I'd say yes, but do I understand it or is this forcing me to look at it differently? Oh, man, you know, a lot. I mean, how about this as a disconnect because I know you and I had some conversations right after the George Floyd incident. I think my reaction was similar to a lot of white people, and that is absolute horror. Like disgust. Like, how does this happen? How can a police officer be so brazen and so evil? I was horrified. But I remember asking you how you reacted, Pam. I mean, tell us about that.

Pam McCoy: Well, to be sure, hearing about the killing of a black man by policemen and even white policemen, this isn't the first time. Yeah. And sadly, it probably won't be the last time. But George Floyd's murder filled me with a despair that I had never known. It was a despair that I know was tied to the fact that I could see Officer Chauvin's face. I could see his eyes, I could see his demeanor, I could see his posture while he's choking the life out of another person. Every time I saw the video from the beginning of the week to the end of the week, I could do nothing but cry. By the end of the week, I could do nothing but cry all day. And my cry was not just tears, it was cries out to God asking him, why must it be so hard to be black in America? Asking him when will this end? Telling him that our health and our safety and our livelihood and our personhood is just a hard struggle all the time. When will this end? So then I began thinking about how racism hardens a person's heart, because that could be the only reason that makes you think so little of someone else. It hardens the person's heart. That person who feels that they're empowered or somehow have more power and more value than other people. And then it also hardens the hearts of those who daily live under this power of racism and bigoted acts. So in my despair over George Floyd and the many ways in which black people have been treated in America, I had to start wondering after years of racism, that I've seen and experience. What was it doing to my heart?

Andy Kaufman: Hmm. I didn't cry. I didn't have that same reaction. But what I think is interesting is we have two people who believe and love the same guy. We say we value life and justice and yet our reactions are similar--and, you know, I don't claim mine is the same as all white people and likewise, I'm sure for you, but they were different. And I think it's just one example that growing up white in America is different than growing up black, and I just don't see things through the same lens there. So what's something else about growing up black in America that maybe white people could easily miss or not appreciate? Anything come to mind?

Pam McCoy: I think one thing. I grew up in the sixties, sixties and seventies. So in the middle of the civil rights movement, I think one thing that white people may not see is carrying the burden. When you enter the room, that is very likely. Someone in the room who is white thinks that you shouldn't be there and they wonder why you're there. And so it leaves you with the burden of trying to prove your worth. And because it has, it happens so frequently. You just automatically or let me speak for myself. I just automatically say be ready because it's probably going to happen that you have to anticipate that you'll be second-guessed, that you'll be marginalized and that you'll be challenged in ways that your white counterparts are not challenged. And so you carry this burden with you literally almost everywhere you go. You begin to understand that the challenges that you see, the way racism presents itself is very different. My experience as an educated, professional black woman is very different from someone who does not have those credentials. But my experience with racism is one where there's microaggressions. There's very stealth ways in which racism and bigoted actions are carried out in such a way that you almost walk away and say, Did that just happen? And then you remind yourself, Yeah, it did. It did. Also, growing up Black in America, you know that there disparities in your communities. You know why there are disparities in your community. And it makes you angry and it leaves room for hate. And Andy, there was a story I shared with you about a concern my mother had for me as a young adult. I think it was maybe a couple of years ago. I'm not sure what the incident was that brought this back to my memory, but my mother was very concerned that I would hate white people. Now, this came into my mind at least two years ago. Don't know what prompted it. And speaking with my aunt, because my mother has passed last year and speaking with my aunt a couple of weeks ago, we're talking about George Floyd. And without prompting, she says to me, your mother was so concerned that she would hate white people. I do not know what my mother saw in me, what she feared would be in me, because being a first generation college student, I was seeing more of the world. So I was out of the shelter of home. Did she fear that I would see some things that would turn my stomach and that the only way that I would know how to respond was out of hate? I think so.

Andy Kaufman: You know, I'm sure we could probably have a much longer discussion about things that are so easy to miss because like talking to friends, they go, you know, you don't understand that it does happen, that when you get on an elevator, some people clutch their purse. Those sort of things happen. What I think of and this would be a black person saying when I see a police car following me in the car is not what you're thinking, you know? And so so there are all these things that that would be easy for me to think aren't a big deal or that I would I would say this just so easy for me to miss. And I love the term used. Like it's a burden that you carry that that I just have not appreciated, not understood. And, you know, let's face it, you and I don't I don't represent all white people here. You don't represent all black people. We don't claim to be theologians as we talk about this, but we're trying to figure out how do we process this from a spiritual perspective. And I know that you and I have been because you actually recommended the book to me, deeply impacted by a minister and civil rights activist named John Perkins. And one of his books, one of his most famous ones, but one of many is entitled One Blood. So what's the premise of that title One Blood?

Pam McCoy: That's interesting because you don't sort of get it as once you start the book, but as you're reading and following his lead, what you begin to understand is that there's this notion in the world that between human beings, there's a real difference in skin color. And the problem is the notion is untrue. And in fact, I will be so bold as to say it's a lot, but it's a lie that has been in place for centuries. All people are created in the image of God, and he did not make one group of people of higher value or lesser value than the other. We're all the same in his creation. And for those who need some sort of evidence, that's beyond the Bible to support that, there's the Human Genome Project. That project actually proved that every human is 99.9%, genetically the same. And so the only thing that's different is what we see with our eyes. But once you remove the skin, we're all the same.

Andy Kaufman: It's. It's so fun that, like, biology backs up that idea, but it's also consistent with scripture, right? I mean, when you think about what the Bible says.

Pam McCoy: Yeah, the Bible says that we are created in the image of God. So that means that we are created with the ability to fail, think, reason, make decisions there. There's no inadequacy here. We are created with those abilities. This lie about race and there being a difference between the races is a manmade idea that was used to define creation in a way that is different from God's design. And whenever we do something different from God's design, it always ends up in brokenness. And so what is the brokenness here? The brokenness here was that this lie was used to justify why land would be taken from native dwellers, how buildings and nations would be established. And this is reflective of the US history. Yeah.

Andy Kaufman: So, so we have this, this biological idea that there's, as I understand it is, there's more diversity within what we would call race when it comes to genetic makeup then across races. So it's so much commonality. Then the scripture talks about we're made in the image of God, not in many different images. I don't remember ever saying this, but I probably was a big enough idiot to have said this. Well, then we should just be colorblind. Pam, right? This idea of being colorblind just becomes more apparently foolish as I've gotten older because, well, I mentioned we adopted two young kids. They're not Caucasian, and we didn't even have to bring up color. We didn't have to bring it up like they did it all the time, even as young children. So from the spiritual perspective, I look at you, we are one, right? We are. We are one. We are followers of Christ. We are made in the image of God. We're the same and yet we're different, right? It's the unity and diversity and the spiritual lens allows us. It leads us to appreciate both of those.

Pam McCoy: Right, right, right. But at the same time, we can't ignore the reality because we are living in a world whose foundation is built on a lie. And that lie is the thing that is hindering us. Racism is so deeply ingrained in the American culture. It is easy to think this will never go away. I think as followers of Jesus Christ, we can't afford to think that way. Yeah, I think that through our own efforts and we've got several hundred years of our own efforts, it won't go away. But if we do the deep, hard work with God, then all things are possible.

Andy Kaufman: When we look at it from a spiritual perspective, it's sin, right? If we look at it as sin from through the spiritual lens. In fact, actually some have called it America's original sin. I'm amazed how little I know about this from my schooling. So, I mean, just give it from your perspective, you know, examples of how racism is just deeply ingrained in our culture.

Pam McCoy: Yeah, well, as I said, you know, first of all, we have this lie about there being differences in the races. How do you substantiate the lie? You substantiate the lie by only telling part of the history of a country or eliminating certain segments of it, not talking about it, not teaching it. Therefore, we don't have that information in our hearts, but just a little bit of what the history entails. Since the first European set foot in this country, the very first thing they did was seize the land from the native dwellers. Now, in order to do that, somehow you had to think it was your right to do that right. And they move from there to transporting people from Africa to come here as slaves, and they transported them like cattle. So imagine a ship with animals packed on top of each other. Now switch out those animals and put a visual image in your mind of people, men, women and children packed on top of each other. On the ship to America. To help build a great nation. And once here they were they lived under savage conditions of absolute power and control and with the element that they weren't human, not fully human. Even our Constitution, in its original writings, said that black people weren't fully human. So it was justified legally and sadly, biblically, it was even justified and then fortified with brute force. Now, slavery ended in 1865, and since then there have been numerous political and legal and economic and business initiatives that have been put in place with the whole notion and intent of eradicating racism. But we stand here today realizing it's not gone. But while all of these things were very, very helpful, racism is like a novel virus. It spreads, it's persistent. It presents in different ways. We look at all of the societal disparities between black America and white America at the foundation the source of all of that is racism.

Andy Kaufman: So I have to tell you, Pam, I mean, even as you go through that, it's more apparent to me now and I actually say this almost embarrassed, really, that that there's much of that history. I feel like I didn't know some of that I did, school brought a lot of it and lack of curiosity didn't fill in a lot of that on my part. But the last couple of months, it's much more clear to me than ever. It's deeply ingrained in our culture. And like you said, we've made progress. You know, we've made progress. And yet, like you say, it persists. So why is that? That it persists?

Pam McCoy: And that is really the the the sole reason why you and I wanted to have this conversation, because the root cause and effect of racism, it's what's in the heart of every person. So it's not only hardwired into our culture, it's hardwired into our hearts. So racism can't be eradicated until it's removed from each of our hearts. And that, too, seems like an impossible task. But I don't want to leave my young nieces and nephews, two of whom are biracial, with this burden to live through.

Andy Kaufman: Yeah, yeah. That's a good way of saying it. So, you know, from a spiritual perspective, that's what we're talking about. We have all people created in the image of God. So the one blood idea, and yet there's this deep root of sin called racism and it's led to brokenness. And we continue to see that to this day. So, you know, from a spiritual lens, how do we respond when I think of what the Bible offers us is forgiveness and reconciliation are two of the most powerful transformational ideas in the Bible, and it's the essence of the Gospel in many ways. And forgiveness starts with a confession. But here's an observation I have, Pam. I've yet to talk with anyone of any ethnic background who said, you know, Andy, I'm truly an outright racist. I mean, I don't doubt there are people who actually say that, but I've never met that person and I believe they exist. But I think most of us feel strongly to the contrary. I guess my point is we easily see this as someone else's problem, not mine. And John in one blood, John Perkins. He suggests that reconciliation must begin he says with our own personal grief and confession of actions that support it either directly or indirectly. And that's a weighty idea. And I think its challenging, especially when we think we're not the racist one. So how do we think this through as followers of Christ?

Pam McCoy: You know, I agree with John Perkins and you as well. It is weighty. The sin of racism has not been acknowledged individually, much less corporately. And to me, the individual acknowledgment is more important than the corporate acknowledgment, because you can pair it a corporate acknowledgment that maintained racism and bigoted thoughts in your heart. An example might be your company sets quotas for hiring. You follow the mandate of the quota, but your heart does not see the value in candidates of diverse backgrounds. You're just doing it because you're required to do it. For someone who actually was part of some of the quota hirings, that just adds to the burden because, you know, you're not here because people thought you were capable. They had a quota of me. That just adds to the burden. So if we really want to see racism eliminated, we have to look within ourselves because we each own a piece of the mess. So it's not just white America but its black America as well. Because racism is like a corona virus. It affects both sides of the spectrum.

Andy Kaufman: If we're going to deal with this from a spiritual perspective, I like that it has to start with us. There's personal reflection, there's prayer, there's confessing to God that this isn't just someone else's problem. It starts with us. And I feel like in my walk, I feel like I'm learning that confession isn't just God, I'm sorry. And that's going to be part of it. But God, this is how I feel. Like, you know how the Psalms are filled with David going, God, why does this happen? Like, how does this happen? Right? The Bible is filled with that. It actually gives us room to have that. And I feel like that's part of the confession. But then I can't just I can't go there. I have to look inside. So here's the deal, man. I have had to look in the mirror and confess that more than I even realize. God, root it out of me. Root it out of me. And the cool thing is, the Bible also has situations like Ezra and Daniel and others. They lamented not only for their own sin, but for the sins of their people. You know, like like you reminded me, I think it was was at Billy Graham or Martin Luther King or both of them who observed that the most segregated time of the week was 11:00 on a Sunday morning. And we've tolerated that. Right? Regardless of I was there during Jim Crow, regardless of whether I was keeping someone from being able to vote or pointing someone down to that bathroom as opposed to this one, we confess the sins of our past, even watching Selma, you know. And I realized, like, no movie is perfectly accurate, but they tried to be really accurate. It opened my eyes to bears in the past that there's so much I don't know about this. So it begins in the living room, right? It begins in my heart. It begins in our knees. We confess and we lament. A problem starts here. So that can be the first steps towards forgiveness. Now it's another tool available to us as people of faith. So. So here's what I'm interested in when it comes to forgiveness. Ma'am, as you've progressed on your journey as a follower of Christ in the midst of injustice and prejudice, carrying that burden that you talked about, how is forgiveness been part of that story for you? What have you chosen to forgive and what difference does that mean?

Pam McCoy: Right. You know, as I pondered that question, I end up comparing my experiences with racism to those of other black Americans, where their experience is dramatically different and more painful than my own. I might deal with microaggressions, marginalization and things of that sort. I might deal with systematic barriers to progressing in your career. I might deal with all of those things. But there are other black Americans where they have poor health. They don't have the best resources to food. They don't have enough money to live on. They don't have access to better education. And so one of the things that does for me in my confession is to say, yeah, this was tough, but it's not as tough as what other people have had to go through. And especially considering that my parents lived through Jim Crow civil rights all the way up until now. But the thing about forgiveness that concerns me and should concern all of us when the sting of racism hits your home in such a way that it causes a loss of someone you love, now can you forgive? My prayer is that God would build me up enough that I can forgive because where I am now, sure I can say Yeah I'll forgive, but I haven't lost the life of someone that I love. I haven't lost that. I've seen hardships and I've seen people work their way through it and that's wonderful. But I haven't seen someone that I love just fall to the weight of racism. And so for me, when I think about this, I pray that my heart, that my spirit, my commitment to God, my faith and trust in God will be enough. I could forgive.

Andy Kaufman: You know, this is one of those topics that it's like you're saying it's easy to talk about in theory, but the deeper it cuts, the more difficult this actually is. So let's say someone listening to us is one of those people that have experienced a loss or or they just feel like the injustice has been too deep. Like, I'm not sure I can forgive. Like, why should I forgive? Any thoughts about that?

Pam McCoy: Yeah, I love how John Perkins, who himself had gone through a great deal of racist abuse, such that he was he experienced police brutality, his mother died, died of starvation. And he carried that weight around with him. And I'm struck by his words when he says forgiveness is not a feeling. And very often we say, I don't feel like forgiving. Well, for those of us who are believers and followers of God, the ability to forgive is important. And so what John Perkins reminds us of is that forgiveness is a will of the spirit, not an emotion. I think in this world, we always think we can do only what we feel. But this is this is taking your feeling and not letting your feeling drive your behavior, the willingness to forgive. I think sometimes also we tag forgive and forget. The Bible never teaches us to forget. It says to forgive. And forgiveness, meaning that you're acknowledging a wrong that was done to you. But you are making a decision. I'm not going to forever hold this against you, but you are not saying I will not do any work to alleviate what has happened here.

Andy Kaufman: I'm thinking of do you remember the shooting incident where that Dylann Roof, the young white supremacist, you know, I think at least nine were killed and some others injured from it. But afterwards, like what the family did. Do you remember watching that? Like how you experience that?

Pam McCoy: Andy. That's what I'm talking about.

Andy Kaufman: That's what I'm thinking.

Pam McCoy: Would I be able to do that? Oh, and I don't want to be so arrogant to say, Oh, yeah, I can do that when it gets closer to you. You pray that you're ready to do that. There is another story about a woman Corrie Ten Boom. This was during the Holocaust era. She and her family and they were Christians. They hid Jewish people in their attic to protect them. They were discovered and the Jewish people were taken to the concentration camp. So was Corrie Ten Boom and her family, her sister and her father. They were taken to a concentration camp as well. They were brutalized in the same manner as the Jewish people. Her father died in the camp. Her sister died in the camp. The entire time that Corrie Ten Boom and her family were there, they held on to their faith and their trust in God, not knowing if any of them would ever make it out. And then to see that your father and your sister don't make it out. And you do. Years later, after Corrie Ten Boom was released, she started speaking all over the United States and even in Europe about her experience. And at one presentation, she noticed someone in the audience who looked very familiar, and that person was one of the guards who brutalized her. Can you imagine that? That you would never lose the image of the person who's inflicting pain on you. At the end of her talk. This guard comes up to I'm sure she's wondering, what is he going to do now? But he actually comes up and he extends his hand to say, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for what I did to you and your family. Will you forgive me? In that moment, Corrie had never thought about she might ever see these horrible people again and might ever be challenged to say. I forgive you, but she extended her hand and I can only imagine she did it trusting God. And she held his hand. And she knew at that moment. Yes. I can forgive you. The hurt in this country is so deep that it's going to take acknowledging the sin, confessing the sin, and a real effort to forgive the sin.

Andy Kaufman: That's so--well, what a story, you know. And there's there's countless of these of people that stand in front of the oppressor or whatever, and they do it. And as followers of Christ, it's really not an option for us, at least biblically. I mean, we asked to forgive us as we've forgiven our debtors. We don't forgive seven times. It's 77 times. It is one of those things, though, that you hear stories of people that say after doing it was liberating to them like, wait, that falls off of them. So where are we at? We realized that we're made in God's image. We confess our sin. We seek forgiveness, even when it's really, really difficult. The Bible then offers this idea of repentance like this, this change of mind moving forward in the opposite direction. Now, I'll tell you, I've got a black friend who said they personally find it creepy and almost insulting when someone comes up and apologizes for their white privilege. Now, I'm not once again, I'm not saying everyone feels like that. And my guess is the person who did that to her right before she made that post had good intentions when they did it. So I think people have good intentions, but frankly, I think a lot of white people, we don't know what to do to show our love and support and to turn the other direction, repentance, turn the other way to tear down walls. So what are some practical things you've seen both white and black people do to tear down walls and begin this process of reconciliation?

Pam McCoy: So, you know, one of the most practical things we can do is do life together. We live in a very segregated metropolitan area. I'm in the city of Chicago, on the south side of the city. And what I know is the only integrated community on the south side, we still find a way to segregate. You are in a suburban area that's probably very homogenous. So what's happening is, is that we're not doing life together. And so in not doing life together, we're also not talking about our experiences. It is very hard to talk about racism, to talk about what it feels like without one party or the other party feeling defensive. Because just as you don't want me to perceive you as a racist, I don't want you to perceive me as a bigot. So we pick and choose our words. But in friendship, I like the friendships where I can drop the mask and I can say, Here's why this hurts. And that the other person can say to me, Here's why this hurts. Here's what I don't understand. Here's what has happened and begin working together. We read in John Perkins book about two churches, one church that was, and this happens with churches over time, begins to age. And so the membership begins to dwindle. And then we heard about another church that was growing and was looking to build an even larger church. And the difference is, is that one church was all white--that's the one that was dwindling--and one was all black--that's the one that was growing--and these two pastors took God at his word that he is expecting us to live with our diversity in a peaceful way. They merge the two churches now mergers. We think about that in a corporate setting. In a business, you're actually merging two cultures that sometimes, oh, man, talk about change management in real time. Imagine that in a church. What it did is that it integrated the lives of people and those who wanted more to know, more people of different ethnic backgrounds. They found a place where they could do life together. Now, if that happens in a church and you can do life together there and respect the differences and the value of each person, you begin to take that out into the community, into your workspace, because the wall that was separating us has been broken down. That's a way that a church can do this. But I think individually you and I both have as we've just been preparing for this episode, we both realize there's so much more here for me to learn.

Andy Kaufman: And that's so true. That's so true.

Pam McCoy: Pam on both sides. Yeah.

Andy Kaufman: Yeah. You know, I think of my circle of friends and it includes various ethnicities and but something I'm trying to do is I'm trying to read more Bible studies written by black pastors. I'm trying to learn more about our mutual histories, realizing that history, it doesn't always reflect reality. So I've got to be careful about that. I feel like I'm praying differently to show me where I need to change. So instead of just being horrified with what's out there, like, how can I engage in the work of reconciliation? I'm praying for our leaders differently. And by the way, I'm not talking about just our state and national leaders. I'm talking about within our university family. I mean, we've got leaders. Well, you're one of them. We've got leaders who have to navigate really difficult things right now. And everyone's got good intentions, but knowing how to do it can be difficult. That's something that we can pray for in practical ways. And as piddly as this sounds, I'm becoming even more aware of how choices like clip art and photos that I use in presentations like in our class could have subtle bias messages without even realizing it. So it really comes down to it feels like listening a lot more, learning a lot more. And Pam, loving.

Pam McCoy: Loving. Yes, Andy, I don't think I would not call your gesture pitily you're awareness is being lifted. That's what's happening there for you. I appreciate the fact that Loyola is encouraging us to dig into these issues personally and collectively. I joined the reading group at Loyola. I've been at Loyola more than ten years. I've never joined any of the groups. I've never really participated in some of the major discussions around race at the university. But now it feels like this is the time to make the time to do this, because I too live in a bubble. And so I don't know what it feels like to be white in America. I only know the presumptions that I have, but I don't really know. I know that it's not just racism that's confounding this conversation and this experience we're having in America. There is a class issue as well. And so maybe some of the issues that we're looking at, it's a mixture of race and class, but because we don't talk about these things, we don't pray about these things, we don't work together to resolve these things, it persists.

Andy Kaufman: I try to remember. I forget it regularly, but how is it that you and I and those listening to us are to be recognized? It's not by our stature, it's not by our skin color. It's not what we wear. It's not what we drive like. You're talking about how some of that classism runs in there, but the Bible says, right by this, all men will know you're my disciples if you love one another. And so even when I know I'm going to ask it wrong, I'll say it wrong if it's clear that I'm doing this in love. Right? Same thing for you. I'm same for everyone. Listeners, if we do it in love, if our intentions are that we are living through a spiritual lens, does that sound right?

Pam McCoy: It does. And it means also that should we not say it correctly and it's not received as we had wanted it to be received. We don't retreat. We acknowledge that, you know, I didn't intend to be offensive, but I understand how this could have been perceived as offensive. But I really want to know your heart on this and then have a willingness to listen, because right now, a lot of what we're doing, we're not listening. We're reacting. You know what I fear and I know this fear is shared by a number of black Americans. The four months from now, we're not going to be talking about George Floyd. We're not going to be talking about how we feel right now because we will be off to the other thing. We don't want that loss. We can't have that loss because we never resolve the problem here. So, you know, it's we're thinking about this as people of faith. We know that prayer is an essential component here. Prayer is not just talking to God. It's listening to God. That's how I've always discovered the things that are hidden away in my heart, that aren't so pleasing and that aren't so hopeful. Yeah.

Andy Kaufman: Well, thank you so much, Pam.

Pam McCoy: Thank you, Andy. And thank you, everyone, for listening to us. And we hope that this has left you with some things to think about and perhaps even do.

Kevin Stevens: This has been an episode of the Q Talks podcast where we seek to marry the wisdom of the Quinlan community with the issues of today. Our thanks to Associate Dean Pam McCoy and Andy Kaufman for their conversation. Listeners interested in Diving Deeper are encouraged to read the books One Blood by John Perkins, The Hiding Place, The Triumphant Story of Corrie ten Boom and the Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson. Additional thanks to Dean Kevin Stevens for his generous support of this project. Matt Shealy, our student producer for editing this episode. Loyola School of Communication and WLUW for their continued collaboration. Please take a minute to support us by rating and reviewing our episodes to help expand our reach. Thank you for listening. We hope you join us next time.