Episode 3

From Industry to Academia

Transcript

Speaker 1: From the Loyola Quinlan School of Business. You're listening to the Q Talks podcast.

Al Gini: Hello. My name is Al Gini, and I'm a professor of business ethics in the Department of Management in the Quinlan School of Business. And my guest today is one of the true stars of the management department, Professor Michael Welch. Michael joined Loyola in 2003 after a very successful career as senior litigator, litigating counsel at Winston and Strawn, and eventually as the vice president of legal services for the Quaker Oats Company, a subsidiary of PepsiCo, Inc.. Michael, welcome, and thank you for joining us.

Michael Welch: Thank you, Al. Thank you. Thanks a lot for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Al Gini: It's at this point in our lives, Michael, and given everything that's going wrong, it's a pleasure to be anywhere, isn't it? Michael. Since you joined Quinlan, you have been the utility clean up hitter and player in the management department. You've taught the intro courses for the brand new sophomores. What is business? 201. And you've taught the capstone courses to the unwilling seniors who just wanted to get it over with and taught them something along the way. And then you did the same thing, the capstone course and management for the MBA students, both at the full time level and then our executive program. And somewhere along the line, we got smart enough to start using you at what you're absolutely best at, not just, oh, quick run in, finish that class. And what we found out you were best said was strategic management, entrepreneurship, micro enterprise consulting, the legal environment of business, international business. Through trips that you took, trips that I was jealous of and wish I had assigned you the trips, but I couldn't join you because they were wonderful trips. And you've been doing this for about 17 years and all those and all through these areas. There's a constant theme, though, that your focus and your personal experience and your passion has been directed to the executive leadership and executive education and the importance of moral leadership. So let me start off with the big question. How do you see the role of leadership in today's business environment?

Michael Welch: That's a big question. Let me start by the thing that kind of evolved for me in teaching that at Loyola was the whole concept of values-based leadership. And for me, there was it resonated with me. There's been a lot of books written about it. It certainly resonates with all the Jesuit values that we teach at Loyola as well. And I liked it because it's it first starts with knowing oneself, knowing yourself. Peter Drucker has written articles on knowing oneself. But that's where it starts. And it starts with what's your purpose in life? And I remember in teaching values based leadership at all levels, you know, when you ask that question, people go, What kind of business class is this? Why are you asking me this? Well, it's an incredibly important question, because I don't think that I think that that you hear stories of people getting to be 50 or 60, 70 years old and say, what did I accomplish? What did I do? What was the value that I brought to the world? And to have at least some idea of what your purpose is is incredibly important. But then it leads to, well, who are the people that influenced me? How do they influence me? Why did they influence me? And then really, what are my own values? What are those core concepts that really drive my behavior and drive my actions as a human being? And if we start to understand those and we start to understand how those motivate us and move us in certain directions in our life, then we can start to say, Well, if I want to be a leader, then knowing my values, knowing my purpose, allows me to then say, Okay, then what kind of a leader do I want to be? And there's all kinds of theories out there, all kinds of writings going back to the Greek philosophers up through the 20,000 books that have been written over the last ten years on leadership. But the whole idea is, is that it starts with your own values. And to me, that is so consistent with what we teach in terms of the Jesuit values themselves. How does it inform us with respect to the manner in which we want to lead people?

Al Gini: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Welch: What companies do we want to work for? Why do we want to work? Well, we want to work because the our work should self actualize our own values. They should indicate they should fulfill us rather than just go in and punch a time clock and do it, it should be fulfilling and us being able to understand our values, the values of organizations that we work with, how do they dovetail and then the values of the people that we lead. If we can bring all of those together in a meaningful way, then I think great, great things can happen.

Al Gini: And in fact, in your syllabus with the advanced students, at least you ask them what are your values? Who did you value most as a leader growing up that you work with? Who do you hold up to esteem as a personal model? Is this is this an important factor for you?

Michael Welch: I think so, because I think as we grow up, you know, you ask people who are the five most important people that ever influenced you? And most people will say, my parents, a grandparent, an uncle, a sister, a brother, and our parents and our family have a huge impact on our values growing up. But as we get older, as we get more experienced, as we start to see how the world actually operates, we have the opportunity to either continue to accept those values or to reject them and say no. I think that there's something more important to me. There's something. So we're constantly evolving our own values and we hope for the better. But it starts to give us an indication of where do I fit into the world and how does the work I'm doing and the organization that I'm working for, how do they hopefully positively impact the world?

Al Gini: And in point of fact, you're arguing without even saying it, that we're part of this community, we're part of this ethos, and therefore, we have to know what we're doing with others.

Michael Welch: Well, I think that's that's really what we teach at Loyola. When you when you step back and you say, you know, I know the Baumhart scholars tagline is profit with a purpose. That's certainly a way of putting it. But I think as we look at organizations today, it's not going to be enough for them to say, well, we can kind of do whatever we want to do, but look at our corporate social responsibility program. Given the United Way we're giving to this, we're giving to that, that's not going to do it. I don't think it's ever really done it, but it's certainly not going to do it for the people that are in our programs and our recent graduates of our program and that are looking to say, okay, what do I need to do? And its organizations are going to have to understand that they have to look at every aspect of their business and from a social justice, from an environmental, from all kinds of different aspects that says, are we really being a good citizen doing everything that we can? And I truly believe that when people are unhappy at work, fundamentally, it's because they have there's some sort of disconnect between their own values and what and what their organization is doing. And if that's the case, you should leave.

Al Gini: That's right.

Michael Welch: Life's too short. Find some place where you can really feel fulfilled, where you don't feel stymied in terms of what is it that I think this organization should be doing, what should I be doing? And then constantly run into roadblocks in terms of the way that your organization is doing business.

Al Gini: Yeah, and I think I know in your and your syllabus you talk about this Michael Novak's wonderful idea of being a business person as a vocation in some sense. When I was growing up, business people were the people who made money fine. But if you wanted to be a good person, you should be a teacher or a counselor or a doctor or something like that. And Michael Novak said, We live in community. We need stuff. There's an obligation to make stuff, to do it well and be responsible for doing it. It's not just about making money. And I think your class drives that home.

Michael Welch: Well, I think that's exactly right, because, I mean, I think organizations need to make money. Organizations need to make a fair profit. They need to pass value on to their shareholders, but they should be passing on value to every aspect of it. I mean, I think we're passed Milton Friedman saying, you know, the only stakeholder in an organization is the owners. We're way past that. But community is a very big part of that. But those communities really reach out to having worked for Quaker Oats. It reaches out to the farmers, it reaches out to our employees, it reaches out to our customers, it reaches out to everybody. In terms of are we doing the right thing for those people, are we putting our best foot forward or are we just selfishly looking at profits and saying, you know, no matter what we're going to make the most? I think that's where people get frustrated and there are so many examples. Unilever is one that comes to mind that they intentionally try to do the right kinds of things in all aspects of what they do. And they're so very successful and investors want to invest in them.

Al Gini: And I think I think right now I'm sorry, I didn't mean to step on that last line. I think you're quite correct. And I think right now the COVID 19 crisis is driving home the communality of business that all these people that you never thought of who are actually suppliers and participants in the downstream from the products that you're buying, are now in danger. And what we have is a problem of not only well being, but wellfare. And we're beginning to understand business in another way. I wish we didn't have to learn it this way, but I think we are.

Michael Welch: Well, it comes out of whatever it takes sometimes, you know. But I think one of the things that I've seen is and, you know, being on a lot of Zoom calls over the past several months, I have a greater empathy for people and their circumstances. I mean, you're on a call with somebody and somebody six year old kid comes up and is there. I think we have to understand that. I think we have to recognize, you know, I can't imagine trying to be at home and having kids in grammar school that are trying to learn online. So I think I think it's given us a greater sense of understanding where another person is, what is driving, what's important to them, and gives us an empathy that I don't think that we necessarily thought about that much more in our face.

Al Gini: I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you. And again, on this concept of business as vocation, that is it's an important thing to do. It's not just making money. And I think that that's that scared another generation of Catholics away from business as if it was dirty or inappropriate. But it's another way of contributing to the world.

Michael Welch: Well, I love the concept of vocation. I love the concept of a calling, you know, and I know when we talk about it in class, you know, and if you look at, was it John Niche and then Michael Novak, they talk about it in terms of God is calling us. Well, for some people, that may be a little bit much, but it's something outside of us or something in our own brain that is driving us. And I think if we're open to those kind of factors around us, if we're open to, you know, things dropping out of the sky or suggestions that are being made. And so to me, it's unbelievable. You know, I look at coming to Loyola, and it was just somebody who suggested, have you ever thought about teaching? As I was looking for another job outside of law after leaving Quaker leaving PepsiCo and that just that little germ then led to well, you know, I have a network of people and introductions to and I talked to people from Northwestern and Chicago, DePaul, a couple of other people. And a friend of mine who had been a Quaker was an adjunct here. He introduced me to John Kozlowski. And John said, Do you think that you can teach an undergraduate strategy class? And I said, Yes, I can. Inside I was thinking, oh my God, you know, but that's the way it works. And I just I really feel that if we're open to things, we are led. I think by God, but by some force to find out what our true vocation is in life. And that's a really cool concept.

Al Gini: Yes. I mean, I can't I don't want to make this personal at all. But the reality is, I feel so blessed in the career that I had, it was a gift that I had to contribute to. But it was a gift. And so many people, as you know, written about work. So many people have said, I'm unhappy in life, but they're unhappy at work. And how can you be unhappy at work for 8 to 12 hours a day and then come home to a loving family and make a gourmet meal, play with the children, have an intelligent conversation with your wife and go to bed happy. That's just not going to happen.

Michael Welch: I agree. And I think what's important is, is that that it is a vocation. And I think business is a wonderful vocation. You know, I look I looked at I look at my vocation as a professor, as an instructor. And I feel exactly the same way. Do I feel so blessed that I got put into this. When I started when I went into my first class, I had no idea. But with a lot of help from a lot of people and a lot of support from a lot of people, it really turned out wonderful. Even when I was at Quaker, I felt that as lawyers and I know a lot of people will smirk when they see this, but I felt like I was helping people.

Al Gini: My wife's lawyer. I'm just laughing with you now that you know.

Michael Welch: I know. Well, it's like when I would say go out to the plant, one of the plants or something, say, hey, I'm here from corporate, I'm here to help. And then they would laugh. But I think it is. And I just think about there's in the Institute for Environmental Sustainability, there's a group of classes called Step classes. And I can't remember what the step stands for, but it started off with the biodiesel project and it has food and it has other things. But I remember that the instructor asked me, Nancy Tuckman, and then Tanya. I can't remember her name. I'm sorry. I should. But they wanted somebody. They had a food class, and they wanted somebody to come in from business and talk about it. And I'll tell you truthfully, when you're in a class with a bunch of science majors, environmental science majors and so on, and I say, Hey, I'm here from the Quinlan School of Business. It was like. But as you start to talk about them in terms of why do businesses make the decisions that they do, that businesses really respond to what consumers want, what consumers tell them that they want, and that if they want to change things, being on the inside is way.

Al Gini: Better, way better than being on the outside looking in. Right.

Michael Welch: If you want to drive change. And so as you start to look at the opportunities for people and I wouldn't say that that, you know, I had all these converts at the end of one class, but at least it was something for them to think about. And the whole idea of vocation, I think. Plays into that because I'm hoping that maybe somebody out of that class said, hey, that's maybe a nudge for me, right? That's what a calling is. It's a series of nudges that move you in a certain direction.

Al Gini: So this leads me to my next question, which is also huge, and we can make a little smaller. So are leaders is born or made? And so what I'm hearing from you right now, it's a little bit of both.

Michael Welch: Yes, I think it's a little bit of both. Are certain people more inclined or better suited or drawn to leadership more than others? Yes, I do think that is. But I truly believe anybody can be a leader, anybody who sets their mind to it, who reflects on what it takes to be a leader, who reflects on what leaders really do in terms of driving change, in terms of fulfilling other people's dreams in their jobs. Anybody can do that. And I think a lot of people, you know, you and I are a little bit on the extroverted side. And I think there's tons of people that were introverts that were outstanding leaders. So we have nothing to do with being an introvert or an extrovert, but it's really understanding what do leaders do? What do I want to accomplish? And then putting your mind to it. But I do think anybody can be a leader.

Al Gini: And I think that doesn't have to be in the grand sense. The one lesson I learned from the military, well, there were two. The second lesson was, I don't want to be in the military, but the first lesson I really learned from the military is we're going to be a leader of your task. So whether you're a private or corporal or sergeant, there are seven degrees of sergeants. Whether you're first lieutenant, second lieutenant, captain or major, you've got to be in charge of what you're doing. And I think all the literature in business now is saying you've got to be in charge of what you're doing. You are a leader of your task or a leader of your job, even though you take orders from others.

Michael Welch: I agree. And I think that's what I always try to stress to the classes, was the things that we're talking about in terms of leadership apply at every level inside the organization. You don't have to be a CEO. Unfortunately, when you look at the literature and when you look at cases and so on, everybody wants to talk about CEOs of organizations or leaders of organizations. You know, the top person. It doesn't have to be that way. You can if you're if you can be leading one person, you can be leading a small group of people, you can be leading the team, you can be leading the division. It's all the same. All the same aspects and attributes apply. It's just at what level? We talk about managing down leading, but we manage up to we lead. Yeah, I think we can provide our bosses, our bosses bosses with a lot of direction if in fact we have given the kind of things that need to be talked about inside our organizations, the kind of thought that that is necessary. And I'll just say one last thing on that. I think what people don't see and why I love our capstone class was that leadership and strategy go hand in hand. They both start with a vision. Both start with a vision in terms of what is it? Where are we going? What is it that we're really trying to accomplish? And the ability to motivate people to understand a vision, to understand a strategy, and then to move them in a certain direction. Those two things go hand in hand. And again, that can be at any level inside the organization.

Al Gini: Yeah, I agree with you. Well, let me come back to the class a little bit, I think. And looking at your syllabus and talking to you over the years, that in some sense what you're doing is a combination of three books. One is James O'Toole values based leadership, which we've just talked about and I think we've covered. And the other one is level five leadership. Jim Collins is book, which is still an hardbound hardback, not in paperback, translated to 50 different languages, not jealous of him at all. And then Servant Leadership by Robert Greenfield. I wonder why you picked the Jim Collins book, Level five leadership? I admire the book, but I think readers have to have a certain charisma that Jim Collins doesn't totally communicate. I don't mean you have to be. Lincoln had charisma and he had no charisma. And the basic sense of he couldn't project his voice very far, etc., etc., etc.. But I'm wondering what you think of Level five leadership and why you chose this book.

Michael Welch: Okay. One thing on charisma, I think Peter Drucker said the one thing that leaders all have in common, no charisma. And I think and I think that's kind of why I picked the book, because one, even though his examples, the examples that he uses are they're getting pretty old at this point, like companies like Best Buy or Circuit City are out of business. But I picked it because of the humility. I think everybody agrees that you have to have an incredible drive and a relentless drive in support of the business in order to be successful as a leader. But I love the humility because, one, it's unexpected, and two, it really is a key attribute, and when I say humility, I mean that it's not all about you. It's not all about you. It's all about the team. It's all about the organization. It's all about. And your humility allows you to recognize that. So I like that. And then servant leadership kind of follows takes that to another.

Al Gini: Yeah, it does.

Michael Welch: And Robert Greenleaf has written a lot on it. And I think my take on it and we had many discussions in class on this, is that as a model for not for profits, it's a great model. It's a really, really good model because you look at it not for profit and it's all about serving others. It's all doing something that's in support of others when you try to apply it to business I think there are certain attributes of it that really resonate well. You know, empathy, being concerned about others, recognizing that it's your responsibility to help guide the careers of people that are below you. But I think you constantly get into this whole idea of servant and all of the.

Al Gini: Theological overtones.

Michael Welch: Yeah, but so but I think that there are certain aspects of it and I think it plays off the humility is that, again, it's not all about you who you start to when you start to focus on yourself, then you've kind of lost and people know they know whether you're concerned about yourself or you're concerned about them.

Al Gini: Now, I want to defend myself a little bit here. I totally agree with you. Humility, although I do not possess that virtue at the depth and breadth that my wife would wish. I really believe you're right about humility, that this job I'm the president of this corporation. It's like being a surgeon. I'm not here to celebrate my virtuosity, my technical abilities. I'm here to save the patient in front of you. But for me, the charismatic is the good communicator, not the not the flashy communicator. And, you know, and Warren Buffett to me is the perfect charismatic leader in some sense. He has an attitude, he has a position. He doesn't need a mic in front of him every day. When you ask him a direct question and it's an important question, I will answer it. He has a bit of humility, and that's what I mean. I think you have to be a good communicator and I think without getting too deeply into it, our last president had it in our present president doesn't have it. And that's maybe part of the tension that's going on in our society. Without getting into politics in any way, this notion of, am I in charge or am I fulfilling a role to be in charge of others? I think that's a big, big issue in leadership and in business.

Michael Welch: Yeah, I agree. And I hear what you're saying and communication obviously is a huge issue because people have to understand where is my leader taking me? Yes. Where are they? Where are they? Where are they taking me? And is that a place where I want to go and I make it compelling? Can I make it? Winsome, if you will. Can I convince people? Because if I can convince them, then I can motivate and inspire them to work towards that, to really put their shoulder to the wheel and get it done even in the aspect of change. Because I think, you know, I always remember Roosevelt Kantor at Harvard saying every change looks like a failure in the middle. And can we keep our enthusiasm up for a project? When you meet the inevitable challenges, you meet the inevitable roadblocks as you're trying to drive change. But in this environment, the inability to change is death, I think.

Al Gini: Yeah, I mean. Right. I'm still making the same sandwich that I was making 40 years ago. Your name is, I'm out of business in a very real sense. And certainly it's amazing the gadgets that we use that are in front of us right now, we're communicating to the whole world. And this COVID 19, I've been on local TV, national TV, radio shows, etc., etc. by looking at my phone, think how, think how these pocket, they're not phones, their pocket computers or they have a phone app. Think how our lives have changed by this technology and how everything is so different. Let me ask you one other question.

Michael Welch: This would have been like Al had we not had this. Yeah, this COVID thing would have hit 15 years ago. Yeah, I guess we would have probably been doing a lot of conference calls, but it's not the same when you're not looking at somebody either. Absolutely.

Al Gini: Absolutely. Changes the dynamic. I want to ask you, we have to go soon, but I want to ask you, what do you suggest your graduate students come to you already in jobs or career paths? And I think they kind of know where they are or where they want to get to, etc., etc.. What do you say to the undergraduates in that class that I forced you to teach again and again and again and again? Do you say, go forth, try something, be adventurous? What do you say to them?

Michael Welch: That's a really good question, because they asked me that, too. Part of what I thought I brought to the classroom was they really want to know, like, what's it like out there? I read a bunch of books. I hear a bunch. But what's it what's it really like out there? And I guess my thought was and what? And it depended upon how in 2008, you're telling students you just get a job. But I mean, it's like, does your first job at yeah, your first job matters, but get out there, get a job, get your feet wet and open up your eyes and ears. What's going on around you? Not don't you don't necessarily have to tell and come to your philosophy of life based on your first job. But take a look around and then as you learn, as you start to experience, as you talk to your friends, as you see how other companies work, then become more judicious and more thoughtful. On the decisions that you want to make in terms of where do you want to take your career. That's the best I could do because the graduates had a pretty good idea. But even then I said, be open, be open to something. And that goes right back to your calling, your vocation. Who knows why we're in a program. Who knows what we're going to hear? The speaker isn't going to come in and say something that isn't going to move us in a certain direction. I think we just need to continue to be open and that's part of lifelong learning. I think it's just being open.

Al Gini: I think I tell my students somewhere along the line, it's like raising children and enjoying food. Try it. I always say to my kids, Try that you don't like it, you don't have to eat it again, but try that. And so my son got into snails. Jason got into snails. He was nine years old in France, right? He went, No, I won't eat that one. Just try it. I promise you. Then you don't have to do it again. And I think we have to tell them, get out there, try. And if you fail at that, try something else. You know, keep going though. And I think that's really important. Part of life is change and keep moving. We're coming to the end of this, Michael. But I want to end on a personal note. We are both retirees. We are both professor emeritus right now. But you've had a wider range of life than myself. You've been a practicing lawyer, you've been a business executive, and then you've been an award winning teacher multiple times, I might point out. And you sort of answer this, but answer it again to those who are asleep in the last part. Would you do it all over again, all every part of it, or would you pick one and stick with that?

Michael Welch: Gosh. Yeah. I haven't really I haven't really gone to that part again. I think the answer is yes, I would. I was incredibly fortunate. I mean, I've only had three employers and I know when I was a Quaker for 23 years, people would say, How long have you been here? And. And for me, it was kind of a point of pride. It was like 23 years ago. Nobody else is hiring, right? What's the matter with you? And I continued to move up. I did different things. A Quaker, I was exposed to different aspects of the organization. And I loved that I loved Quaker. I probably would have ended up there.

Al Gini: Had the buyout not happened. Yeah.

Michael Welch: But I am so grateful because when I really didn't know what I wanted to do when I left, I really didn't. And I was lucky because Pepsi kept me on for 18 more months to kind of transition the law department into general counsel and I really had time to think about it in there, but I cannot tell you how fortunate I was to end up at Loyola and kind of fall into something. And like you say, give it a try. Because when John Kozlowski hired me and Don, Don Harris helped me a lot. Joe Graham helped me a lot. It was like, just try it for for a semester and you'll see if they like you and you'll see if you like it. And it just kept on going. And and when Loyola hired me as full time, I had no expectation of that when I started. But I couldn't I couldn't be happier that I had.

Al Gini: Well, we didn't want we didn't want to lose you. You threatened to leave us at one point on. You're on your terrible part time salary. We didn't want to lose you. Michael, thank you for being a colleague. Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being a great teacher to a number of generations of students at Loyola. Take care.

Michael Welch: Thank you, Al. And thank you for all of the opportunities that you gave me and for being a great department chair as well as a great friend. So thank you very much, Alan.

Al Gini: Take care.

Speaker 1: This has been an episode of the Q Talks podcast where we seek to marry the wisdom of the Quinlan community with the issues of today. Special thanks to our guests for their conversation and insight with additional thanks to Dean Kevin Stevens for his generous support of this project. Mashile, our student producer for editing this episode, Loyola School of Communication and UW for their continued collaboration. Please take a minute to support us by rating and reviewing our episodes to help expand our reach. Thank you for listening and we hope you join us next time.